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D2 will go through a lot more rope at 58-59 hard than AEB-L will at 64 hard. and our LC200N is produced with a special technique to add high nitrogen, giving steel excellent corrosion resistance on the top! SUS410 Distilled water can separate steels that are stainless vs those that are not. That is professionaly popular such as the Japanese designation SKD11, Uddeholm Sverker 21, German designation 1.2379, Hitachi SLD and others. Generally this is code for difficulty in abrading away steel. I was struggling to simplify all the Rockwell/Youngs Modulus stuff for readers when I came across your site. I love reading through all the data youve gathered and making note of all the trends (Im a physical organic chemist). Deburring of edges often takes even longer than removing material to produce the edge. It can withstand a lot of wear and tear. It mainly made for knife and it high in Chromium for excellent corrosion resistance. Spyderco has their own salt spray test setup to determine the corrosion resistance and they determined that MagnaCut is sufficiently corrosion resistant for their salt series of knives. Note:There is a powder-metal version called CPM154 thats purer than the non-powder version, making it easier for knifemakers to grind. Hi there, Corrosion is not just about cosmetics and rusting, however, but can also affect edge performance. Thanks again for everything you're doing, it's a tremendous resource. Steels without these attributes are much less costly. Larrin, thank you for this. Nitro V vs 14C28N Last but not least, 14C28N contains comparatively more vanadium elements which makes the carbides more harder and strong, which gives 14C28N a better edge retention. Despite its wonderful performance, XHP is actually not terribly expensive compared to other high-end, all-around performers. It rusts like nothing Ive seen before and it dull just by looking at it. Your email address will not be published. All of the experiments shown below are possible thanks to supporters. By that I dont mean that a better heat treatment is not possible, but that major mistakes in heat treating are avoided. Hi Larrin, thanks so much for writing this blog and putting so much reliable information into such an accessible form. The heat treatment techniques used by the manufacturer as well as the design of the blade itself play a huge role in the ultimate outcome of knife performance! Many knife enthusiasts are concerned with categorizing steels as excellent, good, poor, etc. GiantMouse Vox/Anso ACE Iona Liner Lock Knife, Muley Freaks Erik Van Woerkom Charged With Felony Possession of Trophy Mule Deer, The Biggest Improvement to My Camp Kitchen Is a Mini Pizza Oven (But Not for Pizza), Propane Traeger, Moosejaw Coolers, Hybrid HOKAs, Adventure Chess, and More Emerging Gear, Avalanche Outside British Columbia Resort Buries 10, Kills 3 Heli-Skiers, Netflix Unveils First Trailer for Tour de France Series. [Steel Knife Review], What is 14c28n steel? It is certainly possible for a knifemaker or heat treating company to do a heat treatment that will have suboptimal properties. . I wont go into detail about those here. Several factors arent related to the steel you choose but seriously affect the nature of your knifes performance. Below shows charts summarizing tests of different steels for the major categories discussed so far, low alloy steels, high alloy non-stainless steels, and stainless steels. 1% saltwater will separate between other stainless steels. . D2 is another medium-range tool steel. Quite an eyeopener! And while it can be hard depending on the heat treat, I have found it easily chips, causing microscopic dings in the edge when hardened to a high level on a thin blade. Spyderco offers this as the high-end steel for many of its evergreen blades, like the Paramilitary 2, Paramilitary 3, Manix 2, and Native 5. On the other hand, Speed safe assisted opening allows for easy blade deployment with the use of a simple pull back on the ambidextrous flipper. LC200N has similar properties to those two but with saltwater levels of corrosion resistance. Maxamets hardness results in incredible edge retention and a nightmarish sharpening and machining experience. Ive found S35VN less chippy even at the same hardness. 1. As a side note, pure tungsten carbide blades (from brands like Sandrin) can have very high levels of edge retention, but they are not made of steel. I mean the box cutter type, with the replaceable trapezoidal blades. Here its 8. Water is a severe quenchant that can often lead to warping or cracking. are after the ratings. 1. Cool! I believe they are made of simple carbon steel. Then we could say, e.g. whats even more disturbing is that cvn and fracture toughness sometimes (often?) In many cases, the D2 edge sharpness may last a bit longer. Interesting. Three main characteristics differentiate steels from one another: corrosion resistance, hardness, and toughness. 1) the cvn number is just that, a number. D2 is carbon steel that has high toughness and durability. Wear resistance comes from hardness and carbides, hard particles formed between carbon and another element like Vanadium or Tungsten. One important concept I want to hammer home is that there isnt one property that is most important. On the other hand, 9cr18mov has a slightly higher molybdenum content which gives it higher hardness from quenching and helps drive carbide formation. I always thought VG10 to be way more chippy/less tough compared cpms45vn. It has enough water-fighting properties that it can be used in marine environments. Though technically not a stainless steel at least 14% chromium, and D2 usually has 12% it's relatively corrosion-resistant. Could you please compare it to Shirogami #1 and Agomi #1, I didnt find anything in terms of grain size ragarding thoese steels on the Internert. Some steels are cooked up specifically with this in mind and are very difficult to make rust. One such person is Dr. Larrin Thomas, a professional metallurgist raised by a knife maker and a giant knife nerd. So you can estimate how much a change in hardness would affect edge retention by following the slope of those lines. In use, its very similar to 440C and VG-10. Steels that can be high in edge retention and toughness are desirable for general use knives. But yes, I would assume that the general performance would still be relatively similar between them without evidence to the contrary. 14C28N vs. D2. Contact me if you have any questions or input! 1. Crucible intends SPY27 to be good all-around knife steel. If you want to check the quality of my work, just search for The EDC Bible on Amazon. Therefore you will use it for a long time without requiring frequent sharpening. There is one exception: Bucks 420HC (Buck and onlyBuck) is produced using a proprietary heat treatment. So hard vanadium carbides means you get more edge retention for a given amount of carbide. Marco, BSc Chem. The steel is similar to Sandviks 13C26. 20? This does not predict which knife will cut longer or be more resistant to chipping. My other knives are a Real Steel E77 8cr14mov. High Speed steels are a subset that have significant additions of Mo and/or W that makes them resist softening when they are used for machining operations. But then if you look at an increase of 100 mm in the CATRA test from Maxamet to Rex 121 the toughness only drops 1-2 ft-lbs. In particular, I really care about the toughness / hardness part. . 14C28N is stainless steel, and its knives offer excellent rust resistance and toughness than D2 steel. Heres The Best Review For You (2021), D2 knife blade offers high edge retention, Dulls faster, Requires frequent sharpening. Thanks to Bill Smutz, Alex Topfer, Florian Bachler, Brunhard, Art, Rod H, Sach, Jinny Koh, Jon Duda, Cory Henderson, and UPKnife for becoming Knife Steeel Nerds Patreon supporters! CPM-S90V is my favorite in the high edge retention category because of its decent toughness. This is to keep the focus on the elements that are making the biggest difference. And Ive done a lot of experimental work on knife steels where I feel more confident in my own ratings. But among the steels youll find at Cabelas and the like, this is a pretty good choice. MC66 I feel like it sharpens as easy as D2. Diving into the pool of knife personalization possibilities is a fantastic way to fend off the post-knife-buy blues. Even it enhances corrosion resistance and wear resistance. Most of these steels rely on particle metallurgy and are therefore more expensive. The biggest factor for cost of knife steel is whether it is produced with conventional ingot technology or powder metallurgy. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. If youre having trouble finding the steel you want, see if another manufacturer makes something much like it. As with high alloy tool steels, the amount of vanadium can be a shortcut to predicting the general level of wear resistance and edge retention. In real life, would you expect any presumed increase in deviation from the specified formula, as well as the effects of said deviation, to negatively impact the performance of 8Cr13MoV to any truly noticeable degree? Top quality steel yields perfect toughness, edge retention, wear and corrosion resistance, an easy to sharpen, long lasting and durable everyday carry that will fast become a user favorite. Vancron has a very fine microstructure so it would be tough to beat. In general, higher carbon steels have higher edge retention but lower toughness. The benefit of this, of course, is that the steel holds an edge for a very, very long time. If you would like to change your settings or withdraw consent at any time, the link to do so is in our privacy policy accessible from our home page.. Steels like CPM MagnaCut, CPM M4, CPM 4V, and CPM CruWear fit in this category. Type 8Cr, the more common formulation, is worse than AUS-8: a little more prone to corrosion and not quite as hard. Old time 8670, 5160 (known to ignoramuses as 51shitty) and 52100 are excellent choices and arguably better choices than 80crv2. I think this website is aimed at dispelling these kinds of assertions. I was the heat treater, but after HT to only 58-59 hardness the blades went to the surface grinders for finishing and I remember them going into the packing boxes with mirror polished edges. They make excellent everyday carry steels, especially for light- and medium-duty tasks. I was thinking maybe Sleipner or A2 would be best if a PM steel was out. In that case the difficulty in sharpening would be the inverse of the edge retention rating. We and our partners use data for Personalised ads and content, ad and content measurement, audience insights and product development. Toughness is a measure of how much resistance a steel has to fracturing. In many cases the cost of working with the steel for the knife companies is more significant than the cost of the steel itself. Some steel companies charge more than others. S90V 2. Steels high in toughness are excellent for knives likely to see hard impacts, like large chopping knives. Low Alloy tool steels have small alloy additions to increase hardenability so they harden more easily in oil rather than water. When it debuted, Sal Glesser described XHP as a combination of D2s hardness and 440Cs corrosion resistance. Read more. Another important caveat before we get to the ratings are that these are for the steel only. High Alloy Tool Steel and High Speed Steel Ratings. 2. High wear resistance is not particularly necessary when only performing chopping, and its good ease in sharpening helps when having to restore the edges. Another is that 8Cr13MoV is a generic name for a specific composition while AUS-8 is a name of a product by a specific company. I also added a few more steels in this study. In some previous articles I have shown the balance between my toughness and edge retention measurements such as in the following chart, where the high alloy non-stainless are in orange and the blue are stainless: However, one issue with these charts are that difference in toughness is that a linear scale for toughness is a bit misleading for visualizing practical toughness differences. Should you continue to scroll further, you may find yourself lost in a seemingly endless list of knife steel wealth and knowledge. 420HC doesnt hold an edge well, but its relatively stain-resistant and tough. s30v Another common heat treating choice that is not even categorized as a mistake is tempering in the high temperature regime (~1000F) rather than the low temperature regime (~400F). However the 14c28n steel would be great for an EDC knife with typical usage. Here is the article by Larrin on 48 steels. 14C28N knife will dull faster, but it is easy to sharpen. BD1 is excellent budget steel, very similar in composition and performance to GIN-1, a Japanese steel used a decade ago by Spyderco. Also, if you want a fishing knife, 14c28n steel will survive better in wet areas than D2. compare different heat treats of the same component, it lacks a theoretical foundation and its not clear how to relate it to the real world. Here, read on for an in-depth look at common knife steels as well as the best knife steels around. 14C28N steel is known to offer among the best if not the best toughness in knife steels out there. D2 steel does not contain enough chromium to make it stainless steel. If thats true why do you include it in the stainless steel category? We all have our preference, but overall, preference leans towards the pocket knife with a clip. Some of our partners may process your data as a part of their legitimate business interest without asking for consent. This is one of the fundamental tradeoffs in steel. It is most useful for steels with large amounts of carbide but also helps to be able to add certain carbide types. . More expensive powder metallurgy steels in this category include M390, CPM-S35VN, Elmax, CTS-XHP, CPM-S30V, and CPM-154. So for most steels they are given a rating at around 59-62 Rc, apart from a few steels that are never used at that hardness. The edge retention and ease of sharpening have been what we expect with D2. Approximately the same hardness, yes. Rowens heat treat on ESEE knives that use 1095 is exceptional; KA-BARs is less so. Sure if you dont want stainless steel fine, but there are plenty other carbon steels out there much better than 5160. But the true calling card of INFI is its insane toughness. However, it can be somewhat complicated because an edge can dull from many causes wear, micro-chipping, deformation, or corrosion. There are also hardness/toughness and hardness/TCC charts.but no tables backing this charts. looking at getting a nice larger flipper for a little under 100 AUD. The most balanced is CPM-MagnaCut which is in an area all by itself on the chart. Any idea where it would be on the hardness and toughness scales? In its most basic form, steel is just iron and carbon, but people have been studying, experimenting with, and perfecting steel with other elements for specific applications for millennia. LC200N has similar properties to those two but with saltwater levels of corrosion resistance. D2 at 58 hard will cut much more rope than AEB-L at 62. Around 61 Rc usually. Unfortunately a high amount of it decreases strength. The stainless steel rating. It had better than expected corrosion resistance due to the lack of chromium carbides, a behavior also seen in MagnaCut. However, Kershaw asked Sandvik to make their 13C26 steel more resistant to corrosion, and the result was 14C28N. Less expensive, conventionally produced steels include VG-10, D2, 154CM, N690, and 440C. then you have zirconia and diamond coated blades. But if when youre searching for tough steel for your outdoor experience camping, or hunting, it would be perfect steel but not the best choice therere other steels with better than toughness that would suit your usage. 14C28N, designed by Sandvik at Kershaw's behest to have the edge properties of 13C26 but with increased corrosion resistance by adding nitrogen and chromium. Using controlled furnace heat treating resulted in toughness around 23-28 ft-lbs at 61-62 Rc, while the knifemaker heat treated specimens were 7 ft-lbs or below. But in my experience, it has been nothing but great. There are a few aspects to your question, I think. 14C28N knives are better than D2 knives in corrosion resistance. Your email address will not be published. https://cedric-ada-store.creator-spring.com/listing/brickard-heritage-collectionGood gravy its bricky on thingsSubscribe and hit the bell! Compared to the AUS10A, the D2 has a longer legacy since it's been around since 1918. 1095. 1060 Theyre excellent for choppers, hard-use folders, and outdoor knives that see impacts and heavy use when used at medium hardness. Ive seen more talk and some articles regarding the use of AI to come up with new potential drug molecules, polymeric materials, etc. REX 121 is a powder steel produced by Crucible. Advantages: Toughness, edge retention. As such, the performance of the steel is entirely dependent upon the steels being utilized. the more complex fracture toughness at least lets you make some estimates in this sence. For example, below is a video comparing a 1095 ESEE knife at 55-57 Rc and a MagnaCut knife at 62.5 Rc, both with the same edge angle. 14C28N and D2 steel are not the same. Furthermore, because of its ultrahigh hardness, Maxamet is very prone to corrosion, probably worse than 1095. I would love to see a Tungsten-Carbide blade (like Sandrin is using) and how it compares for Edge Retention, Toughness and Corrosion Resistance especially how it compares to s90v. vanax you can easily buy a $500 knive made out of 14c28n, which has nothing in it besides cr and a trace of ni. The 8Cr13MoV vs D2 debate. There was significant sharpness loss with 1095, almost none with 440A, and D2 was in between. They were two different tests (different batch of steel, different person heat treating, etc). 1.4116 got a 2.5 for toughness and edge retention where as 420HC got a 9 for toughness and a 2.5 for edge retention. As a result, there are no production knives with REX 121 steel, though Ferrum Forge used the steel early on in its custom knives and a Kickstarter knife from the Creely Brothers. FRN The highest edge retention steel was Rex 121 which was at 70 Rc in combination with lots of high hardness vanadium carbides. Start comparing steels. It mainly made for knife and it high in Chromium for excellent corrosion resistance. CROMOVA It does have chromium but is not as sufficient as required to be a type of stainless steel. This showed that XHP and ZDP-189 have significantly lower corrosion resistance than other stainless steels. Fine-carbide knife steels. Below shows pictures of a 61 Rc knife that was impacted with a 3/16 rod at different energy levels. This is also a powder-metal steel produced by American steel company Crucible. Extra kudos for your mathmatical steel composition to edge holding model thats really impressive work. Its found on a large number of traditional-style folders. Jeff I worked at a company that heat treated D2 (1.55% C) planer blades for a company that built wood working equipment for commercial shops. and why would anyone want to use it when 420HC looks so much better for a simple stainless steel option. And below shows a chart of carbide hardness, the equation we created to predict edge retention based on edge angle, hardness, and carbide volumes, and then the chart showing the good correlation: TCC (mm) = -157 + 15.8*Hardness (Rc) 17.8*EdgeAngle() + 11.2*CrC(%) + 14.6*CrVC(%) + 26.2*MC(%) + 9.5*M6C(%) + 20.9*MN(%) + 19.4*CrN(%). just recently the idea occured tome to sharpen a planer blade like a knife and check out how it performs. and yet millons of knives are being made out of 1.4116 (aisi 420mov?) Most of these steels are carbon steels, except for CPM MagnaCut (the fancy steel cooked up specifically for knives by Dr. Thomas), which has excellent corrosion resistance. Mostly it has been presented piecemeal with all of the studies that we have done on optimizing heat treatments of different steels like CPM-CruWear, AEB-L, 52100, etc. Its very hard, tough, and corrosion-resistant. Note just because a blade is made from the premium or high-end steels listed above does not automatically mean its better than the lesser steels. Working closely with our factory the heat treating of this steel has been perfected resulting in excellent performance for the price. 14C28N knives will handle challenging and demanding applications without chipping, cracking, or breaking. Therefore I will be showing the ratings of the steels graphically in terms of toughness-edge retention balance, where steels that are high and to the right have the best combination, and you choose the steel based on the level of toughness or edge retention necessary for the knife. But a few overly vocal forgers were making claims about it that clearly were not true especially when comparing it to 5160. 14c28n steel and D2 steel are both high-quality knife steels. Most edge retention tests isolate wear resistance or how long it takes abrasives to dull your edge in whatever youre cutting. VG-1 is a non-powder steel made by Japanese specialty steelmaker Takefu. The steel is an air-hardness tool steel that is considered semi-stainless because of its high chromium content. Both steels are popular among knife manufacturers and both have their strengths and weaknesses. Cronidur 30 D2 is a tool steel used in industrial settings. It is an excellent steel that in the right hands has proven to produce high performing blades. Some of these steels also have vanadium (CruForgeV) or tungsten (Blue Super, V-Toku2, 1.2519) for increased wear resistance. Ive not seen these used on non-kitchen knives, though, and it seems that if they had real utility they would be used in other knives as well although perhaps on the thinner edges of kitchen knives they are more effective than they would be elsewhere? However, the 14c28n provides perfect edge retention with a maximum hardness of 62Hrc and the mixture of Chromium and Carbon. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/, Unfortunately it all comes down to marketing on everybody involved: Industry, knifemakers, users. Because of their good edge retention, these steels are quite versatile in folders and fixed blades. 52100 Therefore, ensure to wash and dry your knives after use to keep the rust away. (Some crazy folks clean their Swiss Army knivesin adishwasher. Find your right answers here! Sandvik 14C28N steel is better than D2 steel in corrosion resistance and toughness. It mainly made for knife and it high in Chromium for excellent corrosion resistance. Carpenter produces this powder steel. With recommended hardness range of 55-62 HRC; the 14C28N is great for knife applications which place very high demands on edge sharpness, edge stability and corrosion resistance such as chefs knives, hunting knife, pocket knives and fishing knives. In other words, Rex 121 would be the most difficult to sharpen and 5160 and 8670 would be the easiest. Hi Larrin Your estimate of 420HCs corrosion resistance is different here than in your October, 2019 post on corrosion resistance testing: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/10/14/corrosion-resistance-testing/ There you said 7.6 for 420HC. With a high level ofedge retention, corrosion resistance, and toughness, it does most everything quite well. D2 knives, on the other hand, are challenging to sharpen. These steels are perfect for thin edges and high hardness. They differ little in composition and treatment. have extremely high edge retention. The main downside is the steel is more difficult to heat treat and can't go harder than about 60 or perhaps 61 Rc. These are Chinese-produced steels that recently started showing up in Chinese-made knives. The steel was developed to be free from chromium carbides which gives it properties similar to balanced non-stainless tool steels like CPM-4V and CPM-CruWear. And given the recipe, it has a low number of carbides, the extra-hard microcrystals in steel that provide the hardness necessary for a stable and sharp edge. Honestly, yes, because its perfect steel for your knife, besides it depends on which knife, so when youre talking about chef knives, then 14c28n would be an ideal pick thanks to professional corrosion resistance and edge retention. The both blade are equally wear resistant. Its an anomaly in the knife world and quite puzzling to use. In general, higher carbon and higher vanadium steels have higher wear resistance and edge retention but lower toughness. 9cr18mov vs 14c28n. The knife does dull faster. Hi Jimmie, thanks for your comments. That says to me theres a measurable abrasive quality to wood for sure. A mirror finish is the best at resisting corrosion and a rough finish means rust and corrosion is more likely. The big names in powder metallurgy are Crucible (CPM- steels), Carpenter (CTS- steels), Bohler Microclean (M390), and Uddeholm Superclean (Elmax, Vanax). For example, see the chart below for how much edge retention can change with edge geometry for a single steel (in this case 154CM and CPM-154).