what would you say and do (if they stoned you) angry mob is murdering him openly publicly and shamefully. Its a professional, corporate institutional model based on an unbiblical clergy/ laity distinction. We are dedicated to making a difference in the lives of people through relevant teaching, heartfelt worship, and amazing kids & youth programs. I never saw it tried in a church setting, but something like that was tried where I worked. If we were after money we would need to time our exit before Driscoll pulled the roof in again. . What I do really pray for is that the followers start questioning and thinking about what they support and find freedom in their own seeking of Christ instead of following a guru and his interpretations. This is what the giving unit is looking for, not God. Its so weird and twisted, but people eat it up. When you add atmosphere teams to further manipulate peoples worship experience that is too much. Of course he gave all kinds of excuses, Im young, brash, etc. But as he aged, and he spoke more and more, nothing changed, it got more vulgar, more illicit language, more rude, more obnoxious. He can be forgiven. If, as a teacher, you realise that you hate students, you must give up your job and find something else. Location. Please fill me in Numo. My guess is that their Calvinism isnt the root problem here. What in the world could someone with his outlandish views contribute to conferences at Hillsong or James River? @ Bridget: Then the authentic community unravels like a cheap Walmart sweater. So, I read what he wrote, I listened to his speeches, sermons, etc. Che is somewhat of a romantic figure for a lot of people which is why bringing him up can be uncomfortable. All he has to do is say "I repent" and it has to be forgiven and forgotten or we are the meanies. re: Lindells article. @ numo: jesus example they put a robe on him a mockery of his kingship. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.. So, I read what he wrote, I listened to his speeches, sermons, etc. Im fairly certain MD would enjoy being categorized with a so called revolutionary. Considering the level of corruption I impute to mixing with Driscoll, Im not wondering much. "Homosexual activity will lead to destruction. Maybe the apostles did not want to be found by a major persecutor of the movement and Saul/Paul had no alternative but to put some distance between himself and his previous life until things calmed down a bit. The Stronger Men's Conference exists to empower and motivate men to live out God's view of manhood and be the best husbands, fathers, and leaders God has called them to be! (Not that I waiting with bated breath). Ive seen desensitizing have the desired effect and its not pretty. they may think i just sit around judging peoples apologies or repentance. )(mark is apparently not impressed with peter baptizing 3,000 followers in one day cause peter isnt able to be made into a complementarian I guess), interestingly mark points out how stephen handled it but not how mark handled slight persecution which was actually not persecution but truth leveled against him) Are they the ones that keep praying for their leaders to be decent people who dont crave power and position? I have also heard the thoroughly abusive interpretation of Psalm 105:15 touch not my anointed ones, do my prophets no harm. She came to me in sorrow that she walked away from a relationship with Agathos after that Mars Hill warning.. According to the Pastor John Lindell, Driscoll has spoken there on three other occasions. Stephens, in my opinion, has gone to great lengths to keep his position on the ordinance incomprehensible. Glassdoor provides our best prediction for total pay in today's job market, along with other types of pay like cash bonuses, stock bonuses, profit sharing, sales commissions, and tips. I felt like an idiot after I said that. They are not good for him, and he not good for the people he leads. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And I saw it. You can learn a lot about someones character from how they treat those who are below them in status. The singles have a lot of money to be exploited as well, but churches are stuck in a rut of trying to fleece the married folks. actually Jesus spoke to people He had healed early in His ministry and told them not to tell everyone, they did anyway and He spent the rest of His ministry having crowds pressing against Him and having to go hide sometimes. The Jews in Damascus want to kill him and he is snuck out of town by believers. If the congregation, the pew sitter as you say, cannot do it what does that leave? They didnt fail. I am not surprised he is mobilizing his church, which packs a powerful political punch through the sheer number of members and, I believe, their commitment to vote. I know historical accounts can be skewed. Lydia on Sat Jun 13, 2015 at 12:48 Even a brief check on MD online will turn up 67 billion pages with examples of his vulgar or obnoxious and bullying behavior, including several blogs by ex Mars Hill members. Lindell has expressed his views on the topic before. Over the next two Sundays he will continue to remind people to vote Yes and to take a Yes sign for their yard. Or alcoholics working in a bar. You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting such a bully in the name of Jesus Christ. One of the men had been to a conference in Seattle and was just wowed by his missional approach. How about when people stone you for your faith? Not a fan but many are. What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. He looked at me kindly and slightly amused and said, thats okay. District. Youre not one of us. When that donor eventually supported our decision to leave peaceably, Jamie Munson was in a pickle. But the attempt was cut short Sunday when Hillsong, one of the most influential international megachurches, cut him from the speaker list at its upcoming conferences in the United Kingdom and in Australia. They want him to go away and they want to pretend he never existed for the sake of saving those church plants. With BHouston, JLindell and MD there is no hope. I wouldnt want to walk in his shoes and succumb to the large amount of pride he exhibits, what an empty way to live. Its also called community in a box. Just volunteers. The women say as part of the program they were taught to believe that they were possessed by the devil, and have since been forced to receive years of professional psychiatric treatment. Some great insights there, Bob. I asked people who were about as famous (if that is what you call it) as him what they thought. This has taken a toll on me and my family, as well as those close to me, the former senior pastor wrote in a letter posted on the ROCs website. sometimes i have hurt people because i have gotten caught up in the excitement of a new orginazation or enterprise but i have never been able to stay that way long, my conscience pricks me until i stop and go back and make things right with people i have hurt. Your comment is insightful and probably (for the AoG churches) right on the money. My point with Che is to draw a parallel. Are we really talking about clerical influence/position/authority and money? They want their congregations and the world at large to believe that there are no amount of misdeeds that a pastor can perform, no matter how egregious, that means they shouldnt be instantly forgiven and returned to the pulpit ASAP. Why am I concerned? The City of Ozark has an established process in place to investigate, enforce, and educate violators of the ordinance, the department said before stating that it does not condone the flouting of health mandates. My Comment was Deleted How can a reasonable person look past that? Why would anyone seek to admire and celebrate a man who plotted to kill millions of innocent American civilians? Gateway is so deceptive in all their practices. These Pentecostals keep insisting that almost everything written on the internet about Mark Driscoll isnt even close to the truth. its a little hard to swallow that he knew nothing about Driscolls behaviour. In his introductory remarks, he spoke of Marks kindness, humility. i think you are addressing the biggest point actually. No I wouldnt allow someone who was an embezzler or criminal back in charge, of course not. I know that tens of thousands left GW before I did and they walked away without the decency to help others. Pastors that dont understand the devestation they cause by playing God in peoples lives, especially women and childrens lives, have no business calling themselves christians and certainly shouldnt be in positions where people might think they are speaking for God Himself when they tell them how to live. yelling at the referees for too many seasons. You can learn a lot about someones character from how they treat those who are below them in status. By and large, our local churches have been great examples of staying emotionally connected while protecting one another in this pandemicthis example does not do those congregations justice., I stg we're the dumbest country in world. Not much time has passed since he stepped down. I started to ask myself, If Christ is present in someones life, and therefore the Spirit, will not God, in his infinite power, begin to produce those things in that person? And I began to wonder if Mark Driscoll even possessed the Spirit of God. So where is the money coming from now? And Ive certainly heard many tales of people who were awful people moving onto ministry later on in life. since we are all clergy??? In case this was not a rhetorical question, Mark also provided the all important yet elusive authentic community. Why exiles dont speak out is a strange phenomenon. . And there were no acrobats, flying drummers, or the need to check out the latest cosmetic procedure on the head worship pastor there. i think that Jesus and God are Awesome, the only crisis i have been having is in my view of the world and the church. Highlights - Stronger Men's Conference 2023 He cannot or will not go back to school to become a plumber or a dentist or what ever, so he has to figure out how to get back into the Christian preaching / book writing / convention circuit. kinda like a person who has been abused i think, they sometimes have to get past that people may judge them for being stupid for falling for it, or they have to reconcile with the results of them speaking out, shunning, slander ie: the church calls them heretics because they dont attend anymore. @ Nancy: I can appreciate that sentiment Gram3 and I applaud it. He diverts attention from the real purpose, the Gospel, to himself. When Robert brags about lunching with Greg Abbott, golfing with George W Bush or being Rick Santorums spiritual advisor, it makes me feel ill. I want to know how I was deceived. We know that Driscoll should never have been a pastor: lack of formal qualifications, lack of maturity in the faith (too young, and never been a member of a church before he started his own), lack of maturity in general; Whats worse, total lack of good character. No it wasnt, thanks for the insights. This was not due to the kindness of the elders (who told us we could not leave because we were under church discipline). Then he stated emphatically: Now let me just say this to you today cause I have no apology for Mark being there; Im glad Marks here. Prayer Requests I believe these churches are using Driscoll as fallen pastor insurance. 99,693 were here. . Title How to Resign from a Church They just have to shamelessly scam more money in the name of Jesus. Actually are pews still in general use? So Mars Hillweve done this in the pastyou probably dont know thissome years ago you all purchased a large piece of land in India that now has on orphanage with 100 kids on it and you purchased the land. I have met Pastor Lindell once, months ago. 20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. Any allegations are probably not as bad as the truth. 2023 www.news-leader.com. Driscoll should not be granted any level of power till he has demonstrated that he has obtained the humility necessary to handle it. Reveal the conspiracy please. @ sam: it isnt anguish if i dont care and i am just a head of some church deciding that someone cant seperate or divorce or annul because i dont have time to look into it right now and i will get back to them with my judgment when i think its appropriate. He further states: A door was closed to who I was and a door was opened to who I became. I can't help but wonder whether Driscoll is talking about Paul or himself. (KY3) - OZARK, Mo. i think they ended up closing them or not being involved in them anymore, there is an american branch of them now though. no., Thats the crux of the message, isnt it? . Yes, I have been witnessing first hand over the years of the Calvinism in the AG. Gr8 fun. So we were allowed to leave in good standing. "It is possible for someone who has practiced a life of adultery to stop," he said in the sermon. of course i have no idea really what is driving mark driscoll but thats what i think it might be. "And how many knownot everything you read on the internet is true". That got my attention as I was reading the comments yesterday evening. OTOH, they may yet surprise us and probably even themselves. The financial aspects. Im really glad that you are reaching out to GW and other exiles. Missouri has not limited attendance at houses of worship but has advised social distancing. . Oh no. But there is an interesting bit in Acts 9 right after Paul was doing a lot of debating/bold speaking in Jerusalem, the Hellenistic Jews want to kill him. If it is all about numbers and money it would be a wild ride for about five or ten years till it crashes. I know people are tired of hearing these messages and having to be acting upon them, but the virus does not care that we are tired. (This was all before the sex sermons and book.) i found it impossible to take advantage of people, i found that if i hurt someone even unententionally i couldnt sleep until i made it right. Which is all to say that if he was a wanted man back in Jerusalem and the believers did not trust him, then some of the credit for his going away for a few years goes to those who did not let him just keep on keeping on, despite some abrupt lateral entry into proto-christianity. In his introductory remarks, he spoke of Marks kindness, humility, and genuine interest in people. I view it as wisdom. Hasnt it been around long enough that either people (especially younger guys) are sick of it, or they have finally realized its harmful or obnoxious. They proposed to keep Marc but I had to go. Bah, hit reply to soon. Even in the Roman Catholic Church, the obvious structure does not prevent sin or other problems, so I dont think it is a matter either of too much or not enough structure making us fall short of perfection. Pews are in the old megas. James River Church(formerly, James River Assembly) is a Pentecostalmulti-sitemegachurchbased in Ozark, Missouri. He is a draw. Or is it just a GW thing? Church Discipline he sees God. Many times it kept me from feeling like I was the only one who could see this stuff or understood how wrong it is. He was an abusing thug. 34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink. Last week GW was desperately trying to give away as many copies as possible of some book COO Tom Lane wrote called Letters From a Dad to a Graduate. Same deal with Driscoll, just a different sound track. I think it is perfectly ok to say some people are toxic and avoid them for safety and mental health reasons. The problem is that the average pew-sitter has no idea what things a leader should be judged by, and they merely judge based on either looks, speaking ability, or how fun the service is. Im a done for now but that one meeting made we wonder if I could someday find a narrow gate church like the cult expert said. Hosting a giant event without distancing or masking is irresponsible and insulting to the people on the front lines of this crisis, most especially the health care workers who are overwhelmed. It was like my eyes were open. There is an old belief in bapto-evangelico circles that one of the criticisms that could for sure be said against certain other christian religious traditions is that they have priests and we do not, because they let the priests tell them what to do and influence them too much but in our way of doing things that does not happen. The man can speak pretty well and seems to fill the pews. Did MD admit to being WWII under duress or was that more mischief from Dark Miscoll? Same type of focus you describe without the healing stuff. Of course he gave all kinds of excuses, Im young, brash, etc. But as he aged, and he spoke more and more, nothing changed, it got more vulgar, more illicit language, more rude, more obnoxious. IMO they are not qualified to interpret the Bible. Others appear to draw some type of inspiration from Driscoll. Gateway also directly lifted the slogan every number has a name, every name has a story.. spiel verbatim from Perry Nobles NewSpring to try to distract from the reality that every member is seen as a giving unit number (no attribution to Perry, of course). I think it underestimates those believers in the pews who are, themselves, filled with the Spirit and do exhibit the fruit of Galations 5. your post, and this one i read on facebook yesterday: I then stood up and pointed out that 30 lines below the famous quote All men are created equal the Declaration of Independence refers to Natives as merciless Indian savages. http://nativenewsonline.net/currents/the-dilemma-of-the-fourth-of-july/. I guess Calvinism for these guys means never having to take personal responsibility Thats certainly how Driscoll has handled things. I want to know what is so bad about the church and why people dislike it. And Shifting the Blame. saul walks onto the stage of history. He said that his hands were tied. It is an issue of protecting other people. How can they do that? perhaps, assuming cunning strategy on the part of MD and Mark Demoss: *this sector of christainworld is the path of least resistance (especially since from others comments the YRR/reformed world has disowned him). it sounds like you have a story of sorts. That has made logical sense to me forever. So, basically he functioned as Howard Stern for Christians. I saw many warnings but there seemed to be some explanation for most of it. All 6,115 words of it. But Peter rebuked him for his motives and told him to repent of his wickedness and told him he was gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.. It was dingy and old. How can a reasonable person look past that? he (stephen) probably had a ministry, forgiving means you transfer judgment to Jesus, thats what he does, (stephen transfers it to jesus to judge paul), words fail me, but a wrote a bunch which should be up soon lol, i tweeted: Pokin Around: 'Cussing pastor' to preach at James River Church In the wake of this and other scandals, the Mars Hill Church collapsed. Welcome to the James River Church YouTube Channel where you will find weekly encouraging sermons from Pastor John Lindell and others! There is no uncertainty in that. They secretly instigated men who said here come the false charges. Active homosexuals will not make it into heaven, Lindell said in the sermon. He is a draw. GW is also currently preaching John Hagees End Times Armageddon sermons to pump up the numbers, claiming the Rapture WILL take place prior to 12-31-18, in order to scare folks into those spontaneous tubs. He apparently had many nicknames during the course of his life, but became known by Che. It is not short for chancho.. The first time, it was shocking. What I dont get is that those pastors dont care if they look completely dishonest in their statements. Many teach that when Paul said he was chief of all sinners he was claiming to be as evil as he always was. I knew I was being set up when I watched MDs embedded church video posted here at TWW. well i cant finish watching the whole thing. Pastor Lindell invited disgraced misogynistic megachurch pastor Mark Driscoll to speak at James River Assembly while Driscoll was in the midst of a sexual harassment and bullying scandal in his home church. He is not going to go run to a car dealership the minute he gets out of jail. My old church Gateway has atmosphere teams in services to emotionally manipulate members and visitors. Yes, well, my sense of humor doesnt always translate well in the blogosphere . GW youth group also adopted the whole Tribes deal directly from Hillsong, complete with competing tribes wearing war paint and carrying weapons. And Jesus said He would send the Spirit of Truth, how we deal with situations in truth or deceitfulness is very telling. But MD has been a jerk as far as Ive read, not a criminal or anything. Youre not trying hard enough! I used to buy into this,thinking it is such wisdom to see ourselves in the examples of scripture, until I realized that we never seem to see ourselves as the villain. GW has a lot of bad stuff they are covering up. i havent seen any video or statement where he has actually apologized for anything except being mean when he should have been nicer in throwing people under the bus, shoulda offered them a pillow maybe so they didnt hit the ground so hard, but totally right in throwing them. I am thinking that is no doubt true, but Saul/Paul was also a religious activist who had double crossed his former sponsors in Jerusalem who had given him credentials to go seek out believers for persecution. He did it from one of the most powerful places in Southwest Missouri the pulpit of James River Church, where he leads an Assemblies of God congregation that often tops 9,000 worshipers on Sundays. Christian institutions are trying to express an organic Jesus in non-organic structures. Consider how he attained it fleecing the flock. Its just that it isnt what a NT pastor of a group of Christians should be doing. We hunkered down and prepared ourselves for the impact of Mark Driscolls threat. I do feel bad for the guy in many ways. The point of closed systems is to keep them closed. And later did sort of brag about how beneficial it was to him in his spiritual life. Also, I received another great message from one of our Australia graduates thought this would bless you too "Addressing this topic or the subject of the upcoming vote from the pulpit is not against the law in this country, although it may be in the future," Lindell said in the sermon. Marc turned the offer down and we received the letter from Scott Thomas shortly thereafter. Or is it just a GW thing? But we dont know yet for sure. Like the guy who was in charge of SGM, he got away scot-free and is doing well for himself despite the outcry against him. ), Odd how we often tend to read these things as definitive acvounts, when in reality, there are hints of many other things that go unmentioned. Does it lie with Driscoll/Chandler or does it lie with the people whom they want to trust them? Youll notice the Pentecostals elevating him are in their 50s and 60s. I know you are already familiar with it but for anyone else not familiar, it was written in the context of David and Saul. In the wake of this and other scandals, the Mars Hill Church collapsed . Clear All United States - All Cities All allegation deserve to be investigated with openess and transparancy. I had never heard someone talk like that. I am sorry if anything I wrote about Che offended you. His most shocking was when just before he stepped down from the pulpit and was in the midst of many scandals, he did a sermon on the many mistakes of Jesus. Mark Driscoll was totally missing those things. The problem is that the average pew-sitter has no idea what things a leader should be judged by. Dont you want to be a part of that? All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card and teach cheap grace. He wants to release you from that burden and bondage, they haven't asked for forgiveness? There is no reason why he should be a pastor again. No one except lemmings following blindly to where the MoG leads believes them when they say that they only learned about certain facts recently.